Demons, Deities and the Velvet Room – Lost in Context – Episode 4 (Persona Series Lore&Theory)

Demons, Deities and the Velvet Room – Lost in Context – Episode 4 (Persona Series Lore&Theory)

*Raging at game* Ah… hello, you guys. Um, this… Persona 5 sure is fun. I was not very productive in April, was I? As I continue making videos at the lovely
speed of snail, let’s mix things up a bit for a change, and do some more general analysis
of the Persona Series this time around, rather than just analysis of the Major Arcana! Because, believe it or not, my original intention
with Lost in Context was to explore ALL of the context, not just a part of it. I mean, that’s why the show’s called “Lost
in Context” and not “Neni’s Super Happy Tarot Arcana Fun Time”. Hm. Lemme write that one down for a moment- Oh well, better late than never, I guess! Time to dust off the old regular “Lost in
Context” Logo and get crackin’. Since Persona 5 just recently released in
English and I am sitting on the footage for my entire Japanese playthrough of the game
AND I figure enough time has passed in these couple of weeks for at least a sizable portion
of fans to have seen the end credits by now, I guess this is as good a time to get started
with looking into the context, lore and contextualized lore behind this one as ever. So, I got myself a little idea! In preparation for this video, I asked the
readers of my blog to send me questions regarding Persona 5’s lore and its connection and relations
to the lore of past Persona games, so guess what we’re gonna have a look at now! Ladies, Gentlemen, and others! Cats, busses and cats turning into busses! Sit back and observe as I examine Lost in Context: Persona Q&A
-First Edition: Demons and Deities Now, before we begin, BE AWARE that this video
does, in fact, contain HEAVY SPOILERS for all parts of Persona 5 and if you do not wish
to see or hear HEAVY SPOILERS for all parts of Persona 5, you’d be best advised to turn
off the video now! You have been warned. … HEAVY SPOILERS FOR ALL PARTS O- Bufula asks:
Is Yaldaboath Nyarlathotep? And does Lavenza have any more connection
to Philemon than the rest of the velvet room attendants? She’s the only one we’ve seen that shares
the butterfly motif. Alright, nice start! Philemon and Nyarlathotep huh… Guess it’s time to get out some of that P1
and P2 footage. Before we proceed here, it’s important that
all of my viewers here understand a thing or two about the Collective Unconscious and
Archetypes as they are used in the series, so please, if you have no idea what I mean
by that, go watch my video on the Collective Unconscious first. A Link to that one will be in the description. Okay. Is everybody in the Know now? Yes? Alright. Let’s continue. First of all, let’s go into what exactly Nyarlathotep
and Philemon even are. Appearing in the first three games of the
series; Persona 1, Persona 2 Innocent Sin and Persona 2 Eternal Punishment; these two
characters are key figures initiating and driving the plots of especially the Persona
2 duology. The lore behind them is as follows: Philemon and Nyarlathotep are the anthropomorphic
representations of the Collective Unconscious itself, with Philemon ruling over it’s positive
side and representing all of humanity’s creative potential and goodwill. while Nyarlathotep rules over the negative
side of side of the Collective Unconscious, representing all of humanity’s destructive
potential and our vices and malevolence. Accordingly, Philemon has domain over all
Personas and the ability to bestow them to people, while Nyarlathotep has domain over
all Shadows, able to control and shape them to his liking. Now, while these two are never directly referred
to as “gods” in the games they actually appear in, by the definition made apparent in later
installment, it is plainly obvious that Philemon and Nyarlathotep are, in fact, ‘deities’ in
much the same way as Erebus, Izanami, Mikuratana, Chronos, Kagutsuchi and, yes, even Yaldabaoth,
are deities. To make this even more obvious, let me quote
a bit from the canonical Q&A section of the Persona 3 Club book, published after the release
of Persona 3 in Japan. Now, this section of the book, for reason,
was written in-character, with the author roleplaying as characters from Persona 3,
so you’ll have to excuse me as I try to do some voices now. Aigis:
How were people in ancient times, when S.E.E.S. did not yet exist, able to avert The Fall? Ikutsuki:
Ah, a very good question. You see, when it originally only were hundreds
or thousands of people wishing for death, the negative effect this had on the seal were
only very small. After all, there are many more people than
just that in the world, aren’t there? The combined death-wish of these few thousand
people did not suffice to break Nyx’ binds. Moreover, people continued to give birth to
abstract existences within the Collective Unconscious, which furthered the human evolution
even more. Aigis:
This is all rather complicated. Ikutsuki:
To make it simple, this is what gave birth to mythology and religion. Certainly, you know many stories of malevolent
deities or demons being defeated by benevolent deities of virtues, which protect our world,
do you not? These existences we call “gods” protect
the balance in the suppressed, unconscious parts of our psyche. Their providence plays an important role in
strengthening the seal against Nyx. Before you ask, yes, this does, by extension,
mean that Nyx, is, in fact, NOT a deity. The book actually goes into great detail with
explaining what Nyx is. However, right now I don’t really have the
time to go onto this sort of detour without completely derailing the video, so you’ll
just have to trust me when I’m telling you that I plan to cover that topic pretty soon. Anyway, back on track; Deities in the Persona
Series aren’t actually the creators of the world, or almighty forces ruling humanity;
rather, they are a creation of our collective unconscious, representing specific archetypes
and aspects contained within it. For example, Izanami is the goddess representing
the human desire for a wish-granting mother. Mikuratana is the goddess representing human
desire for painless relationships. Chronos is the god representing the human
concept of finite time, aaaand Erebus is the demon representing the human desire for death. By this definition, it is quite clear that
Philemon and Nyarlathotep, too, fall under the umbrella of “deities” in the Persona Universe. However, it’s not like they’re just ANY deities. Rather, they are the DEITIES TO END ALL DEITIES. Each of them represents half of the collective
unconscious. HALF. That’s, like, 50%, you guys. That’s a LOT. Especially compared to such puny aspects as
individual desires, or simple concepts. You could pretty much simplify it all down
and just say that Philemon is the king of all benevolent deities, whereas Nyarlathotep
is the supreme overlord of all malevolent deities. That’s why, if the conditions are right, all
Nyarlathotep needs to do in order to nuke the whole world is to snap a finger and stab
a lady. He has the ENTIRE force of all human badness
that ever existed and will ever exist at his disposal! Now, some of you might be asking “But if these
two are so powerful, then why haven’t we seen them do anything as of late? After all, helping to bring about the Fall
sounds just like Nyarly’s cup of tea, right? And Philemon’s help would sure have been nice
when Izanami went ax-crazy and tried to turn all humans into mindless Shadows, right?” Well, it all comes down to the events of Persona
2 Eternal Punishment. Specifically, its final battle. In this battle, Maya’s team, with enormous
effort, manages to defeat Nyarlathotep and, eventually, deal a final killing blow to him. It is here that we learn two things about
Philemon and Nyarlathotep: A) The two of them exist in symbiosis. As long as one of them exists, the other will
exist as well, in the same form. And B) Nyarlathotep and Philemon cannot truly be
destroyed. Since they are just representations of the
collective unconscious itself, as long as humans exist, they too will continue existing
in one form or another. This is very similar to what Elizabeth says
about Erebus in Persona 4 Arena (clip here.) So we can assume that this is true for all
deities in the games; as long as the thing they represent exists in the collective unconscious,
they will keep being reborn. Now, many fans have taken this to mean that
Nyarlathotep and Philemon must still be out there, existing in exactly the same way we’ve
seen them in P1 and P2. However, that’s not necessarily true. In Persona 4 Golden, we see that deities are
not necessarily reborn into the same form they initially took, when Izanami’s power
and domain are reborn into Marie, the only aspect of hers that had not been destroyed
at that point. That seems to indicate that under specific
conditions, it’s entirely possible for a deity to come back in a very different form from
before. To me, it would seem that that’s what happened
with Philemon and Nyarlathotep as well. So, all that follows here is just my theory,
but I do genuinely believe that I am on to something here, so please, hear me out! Getting back to Bufula’s question: Is Yaldaboath Nyarlathotep? I would say… Yeeenoooomneeehhhh… Kind of? It’s complex. Nyarlathotep himself has not appeared in the
series ever since he was killed in the end of Persona 2. That much is true. However, there has been a suspiiiicious increase
in deities suddenly showing up and deciding all humans should die ever since he’s been
gone. Erebus wants to kill all humans, just like
he did. So does Kagutsuchi. Yeah, he wasn’t very successful, but the thought
was there. And yes, even our dear Demiurge himself, Yaldabaoth,
has the same, poor, low opinion of humanity as a whole that Nyarlathotep seemed to hold. So, here’s my theory: When Maya’s team destroyed
Nyarlathotep, his gigantic, complex archetype, was not stable enough to be reborn into one
single, consistent shape. Instead, he split up into several aspects,
much the same way Izanami and Chronos split themselves, except that when they did it,
it was willingly. With Nyarly, it probably was a necessity. That would mean that all of the overpowered,
outright evil deities we have fought ever since Persona 3, namely Erebus, Kagutsuchi
and Yaldabaoth, are all incarnations of Nyarlathotep that either came into being OR got a significant
power boost (like Marie did) after he was killed in the end of Persona 2. That would make Yaldabaoth, given his size,
a really significant aspect and incarnation of Nyarlathotep, thooo not exactly the same
as the original Nyarly. Similarly, it would also mean that if you
were to fuse Erebus, Kagutsuchi and Yaldabaoth, you would probably get a being more similar
to the original Nyarlathotep, though I assume that there are probably a few yet-unfought
aspects of him still out there that would also be needed to make the fusion truely complete
and bring about an actual return of Nyarlathotep. Now, let’s move on! Does Lavenza have any more connection to Philemon
than the rest of the velvet room attendants? She’s the only one we’ve seen that shares
the butterfly motif. Remember what I said about Philemon and Nyarlathotep
existing in symbiosis? I think that’s something very important to
consider here. If Nyarlathotep really split up into aspects
the way I propose he did, it would stand to reckon that the same would have happened to
Philemon. However, unlike the spike in evil overlords
of edginess in the divine spectrum that I mentioned before, there haven’t really been
that many overpowered, good-hearted deities around to help us out in a pinch ever since…
or have there? Dear viewers, this is the point of the video
in which I would like to point your attention to the Velvet Room, specifically, one important
thing about it that I have not mentioned yet: The Velvet Room, and all in it was created
by Philemon. In Persona 1 and 2, it is explained that the
Velvet Room is a place Philemon created to help Persona Users contracted to him on their
journey. The master of the room is Igor, a doll created
by Philemon in order to find “a meaning of life”, something Philemon seemed fascinated
with due to his desire to help humanity ascend to a better existence. This is alluded to in Persona 3 FES, when
Igor compares himself to Aigis, thus making it clear that this is still the same Igor
as in the previous games, even if Philemon is never mentioned. There’s also Nameless and Belladonna, the
couple of musicians playing the music you hear in the Velvet Room in every single game,
so I think it’s safe to assume these guys are still there, even in the games you don’t
see them. They’re probably hiding in the broom closet
or something. Then, there’s the demon painter, a human with
the ability to capture Persona powers on cards he paints, much like Yusuke in Persona 5,
and… noone else. Yep, that’s right, other than Igor, the people
we associate most with the Velvet Room, the sibling assistants, Elizabeth, Margaret, Theodore,
Lavenza or anyone like them never appear in Persona 1 or 2. There, the compendium is held by Igor himself,
and the need of an assistant is never even addressed. Not once. So, where did these siblings suddenly come
from? And why are they ‘siblings’? Because they were all created by Philemon? Belladonna and Nameless never considered each
other siblings. Igor sure doesn’t seem to consider the assistants
his siblings, and they sure don’t consider him their brother. So, what are Elizabeth and the others? Why are they so powerful and where did they
come from? Interestingly, even the Persona 3 Club Book
refuses to give a concrete answer here. Upon being asked for her true identity, Elizabeth
simply gives the delightful non-answer: Elizabeth:
“I am simply me, nobody, but Elizabeth!” The question then goes on a tangent explaining
the Frankenstein-themed naming behind the Velvet Room denizens and never comes back
from it. Yeaaaaaah. However, there are some interesting properties
the Velvet Room denizens have. Firstly, they appear to be based on the concept
of the Anima/Animus Archetype, which Jung characterized as the gatekeeper to the Collective
Unconscious and one’s ability to create relationships, romantic or otherwise. Jung saw this archetype as always appearing
as the gender opposite to the person contacting it, which would explain why Theodore, who’s
guest was a girl, appears as a young man, while all of the male protagonists have female
assistants watching over their compendium. In Jung’s writings, the Anima/Animus archetype
is seen as a guide a person needs to find their connection to the collective unconscious… Similar to how the Philemon in Jung’s writings,
which Persona’s Philemon was based on, is also referred to as a “wise, guiding spirit”. The assistants also refer to themselves as
“The ones ruling over power”, and while it is never disclosed what this “power” they
rule over exactly is, they curiously display the ability to freely summon any Persona of
those whose compendium they hold. A reminder: Philemon was supposed to be the
one ruling over all Personas. Uh huh. Like Igor, they also display the ability to
fuse Personas, something that seems to NOT be a common ability even among deities, as
Yaldabaoth still requires the help of Caroline and Justine, the split form of Lavenza, to
pull that off. And talking about Lavenza, remember how I
said that deities can split themselves into aspects or fuse back together to make a bigger
deity? Well, guess what happens with Lavenza in Persona
5! And, just as Bufula pointed out so nicely,
while Lavenza is split against her will, what shape does her true will take to the Protagonist? Nothing else but a Butterfly; The same shape
Philemon took whenever he communicated with the P1 or P2 casts in the real world. Okay, I’ll stop beating around the bush now
and get to the point: Ever since a long while ago, I’ve had the theory that the Velvet Room
siblings are, in fact, the split up aspects of Philemon himself, and Persona 5 did nothing
but further this impression in me. Not only does Lavenza pump the Philemon-related
symbolism up to eleven in both her forms, there’s also the fact that Morgana, who’s
apparently really just an unusually small Velvet Room attendant with an equally small
amount of power himself, is directly referred to as having been made from “Humanity’s hope”
– something that would clearly qualify as an aspect of Philemon, who was all of humanity’s
goodness. The one scene in which Morgana hear’s Lavenza’s
voice also makes it seem as if she was trying to say “You are my sibling” at the time which,
along with the very Velvet-room-ish design of his Ultimate Persona, would only further
this theory. It also helps that the Velvet Room attendants
are all working tirelessly to discover “The meaning of their lives”, something Philemon,
as I mentioned previously, was very interested in. If this theory of mine is true, it would mean
that Lavenza isn’t any more related to Philemon than her siblings; she simply happens to be
the aspect of his carrying his ability to turn into a Butterfly as he always did. Now, of course, this theory inevitably also
brings up the question “If Philemon is just split into pieces, like Caroline and Justine
were, then why doesn’t Igor simply perform a fusion and put him back together?” but at
this point, I would like to point out a little detail to you again: Philemon and Nyarlathotep exist in symbiosis. This means, if Philemon returns to being a
single, unified and stable being, this would consequently also mean that Nyarlathotep,
too, would return to his previous form, and their conflict would resume where it left
off, with the same intensity as before. As a small reminder: The intensity their battle
had BEFORE Nyarlathotep was “killed” was responsible for destroying an entire timeline. I feel like Philemon perhaps prefers existing
in the form of the Velvet Room Siblings, heck, maybe he even likes it. I mean, Elizabeth sure seems to be having
the time of her life whenever she’s on screen, and Margaret sure knows how to enjoy herself
too. Theodore is a little screwed, maybe. And, heck, Lavenza didn’t even seem too unhappy
when she was split up into even smaller fragments of herself. Yeah. I’d say he definitely, definitely likes being
a little family of benevolent terror. Alright, let’s sum up my reply to Bufula’s
question real quickly: Dear Bufula, I think Yaldabaoth is an aspect
and incarnation of Nyarlathotep and Lavenza and all her siblings are incarnations of Philemon,
but, regardless of how sure I am of this, this is still all just my very elaborate theory,
so please, take it with a grain of salt until we get more information! Wheeew, that was a long question to answer! It sure took a while… Honestly, I don’t think I can answer any more
today, without making this video hit the 30 minutes mark. Even though this was supposed to be a “QuestionS
and AnswerS”, not a “QuestioN and Answer…R….R…” Hm…Well, technically, it was two questions. So… I’m good? Are you good? I sure am good! Oh boy. I promise, I’ll try to cover more questions
next time around, but this topic really was rather complex and I feel it did deserve a
whole video to itself. A huge “thank you” to Bufula on tumblr for
asking this question in the first place, and to everyone else, who sent in questions, I’ll
get to them as soon as possible. Well, that’s it from me for now! I hope I cleared up a few things for some
of you, wish you all a wonderful day, aaaand I’ll see you around! Later and bye~!

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About the Author: Emmet Marks


  1. Hmmm….. 5 velvet room attendants….. Well we happen to have 5 guillotines…… WHO WANTS TO TEST SOMETHING!

  2. I now want a fanfic from Igor's perspective lamenting the fact his beloved master will forever be turned in this family of overpowered young adults/teens/kids.

    On the topic of Yalda, I still prefer thinking he is also a piece of YHVH, if only due to my obsession with tying all Megami Tensei games together.

    My theory works as follows, the Great Will of the multiverse is a mindless representation of the collective unconscious in all universes (like, Nyar and Philemon of all possible timelines combined), this is hinted at with SMT 3 and SMT 4 Apocalypse. The Great Will does not seem to give two shits about human kind and their problems, however, when humans believe too hard on something, a representation of this concept is born within the Great Will, which gains its own individuality and its own desire to keep the concept that they represent existing.

    In the original duology of Megami tensei and later in Apocalypse it is mentioned that YHVH was not always the big boss of all deities (to the point He is sometimes refered as the Great Will itself), but just another deity who took power over all others and put Himself as capital G God of the universe. This is then probably confirmed as something that could happen in Nocturne, when the whole point of the game is summoning a powerful demon that represents the ideal of the faction the protag sides with to make it into capital G God of the new world that is being created.

    However also in Nocturne is confirmed that YHVH seems to be pushing the Great Will into creating more worlds and destroying them so more worlds are lacking any sense of free will and individuality, so He can rule them with iron fist. I was genuinely confused by this, and was ready to call retcon, when I remembered the design of YHVH in SMT Apocalypse. If you haven't seen it, He is basically a sea of glowing giant yellow faces, which is interesting compared to His previous appearances as a single giant yellow face.

    This makes me think YHVH realized his influence within the Great Will grows as He gains more power in each universe, His purpose is making as many other YHVHs reach that aposteosis and become avatars of the Great Will, so He as a whole becomes the one and only ruler of the multiverse. This would be enough reason to the Great Will to get its ass off the couch and make the "Champions of Will" who are the protags of each SMT game.

    However, how does this affect Persona? We know Persona exists within the SMT multiverse, as all other spioffs, however, contrary to the mainline and most spinoffs, the conflict of order and chaos didn't really seem to have a big influence in the games until P5, with the focus being more on "humanity's inherent goodness vs humanity's inherent weakness and badness". This makes me think something happened during human evolution that caused YHVH to not touch the world of Persona that much, or maybe it was one of the universes in the Amala Multiverse that YHVH just didn't touch. This caused the unconscious to not have one, but two avatars, Butterfly Mask Boy and Edgy Lord Of All Bad Shit.

    In P2, Philemon and Nyar shattered, bringing forth the Rulers of Power (I love that idea) and the deities representing the inner flaws of mankind. Time and time again Philemon, in its butterfly state granted people the power of Persona to fight off the evil that Nyar's pieces were creating. But then, around P4 something happened.

    Izanami's trying to fulfill humanity's desire of living as drones, ignoring the truth around them and just doing whatever the hell they were supposed to do hit painfully close to YHVH's Law faction and its ideals. This makes me think that, as humanity unconsciously realized they had lost their power to just ignore everything, they started to thrive for something to keep them away from the responsability of their own actions, putting faith in the social system as if it was a god. A God of Order.

    Yalda becomes what should be Persona universe's version of YHVH, however the Phantom Thieves, aided by the servant and a piece of Philemon defy it before it reaches the power of the capital G God YHVH is in the mainline games. The fact Satanael, who seems to be closer to SMT 2 and 3's version of Lucifer than anything, appears as people wish for something to overthrow God seems just too conenient to me for it to be a coincidence.

    Also the idea of a piece of Nyar becoming a piece of YHVH makes some interesting implications.

  3. This is meant to be constructive criticism, so i apologize beforehand if i sound rude:

    Personified Incarnations of Collective Ideas (PICI) aren't always deities, it didn't even said they were always seen as Gods, not all Religions and mythologies have Gods (Nontheistic religion such as Buddhism). The Trickster, Joker, the MC from P5 is one of said incarnations as it shares the exact same function and qualities that Jung mentioned in his work "On the psychology of the trickster figure". Yet, he is human.

    Different PICI existed alongside Nyarlathotep and Philemon and have no connection to them, this is specially shown in the Extra Scenario. But the best example is that Nyx appear in P1.

    Yalbadaoth was going to remake mankind (one without a self). Nyarlathotep was guiding it to self-destruction with no remaking ever mentioned. They have different ideals and goals.

    If Igor was created by Philemon, then why the Velver Room siblings and Morgana referred to it as "Master" when it's the other way around?

    While Jung mentioned the balance of the existence of opposites, it never said they exist in the same amount, strength or intensity. One can overpower the other but not eradicated. Which is what happens between Nyarlathotep and Philemon. Philemon can't directly fight him, it even got weaker with the events of P2EP.

  4. YAY! New video! I always love your content! I can't wait to see how all of this only gets better and cooler over time!

  5. I really love yours persona videos, the dedication you put in these is admirable, please do more <3

  6. Hello Nenilein. I just want to tell you that I've enjoyed all your videos about Persona and I hope to see more soon (although let me suggest you to take the time you need and don't worry too much about the updates)

    I really want to know your opinion about the theory that Teddie is Lucifer from the SMT. I think is fascinating how well the dots are connected, altough I belive that Teddie is a being similar to Marie (so that that he is a fragment of Lucifer that developed his own ego. In my personal headcanon he got separated due to a fight between Lucifer and Izanami).

    See you soon

  7. I would like to hear an analysis of characters who have a persona based on the same character (Such as Futaba and Baofu having Prometheus as their final persona). so what are your thoughts as to why this might be.

  8. I had a similar theory to this floating around my head the past few days, it's good to see other people seem to have similar thoughts to my own.

  9. So I have an idea for an addition to this theory: what if there were additional smaller fragments of Philemon's power that could not take a physics form. What if these fragments instead could bond with humans, granting them a portion of Philemon's power, letting them use any Persona of any Arcana just like the attendents. Letting them harness the powers of their bonds with others, the power of all the positive aspects they inspired in those people. In other words, the Wild Card as we see it in P3/4/5 possessed by the protagonists.

  10. I can see that Igor and the others don't talk about Philemon and maybe the other members of Velvet Room would be able to remind its existence,letting them in exile or at jail for it .. and humans are curious and I can see a protagonist fusing the attendants to bring the guy back

  11. Neni! You could have warned me that there was going to be heavy spoilers for Persona 5! I came in this video not seeing that coming at ALL! XD
    Now I have been spoiled…

    And I don't really care. XD

    Anyways, you actually CAN consider Nyx to be a deity. Rather, she's the only being that can be considered to be a TRUE god in every sense. She is pretty much the most powerful being in the Persona universe, as she is an unstoppable being that is the embodiment of Death itself. I mean, she can kill Philemon and Nyarlathotep, despite how they're supposed to be undeniable. That's cause while they are undeniable, that only ranges to humans. Nyx predates humans, and is an inevitable of delivering death to humans, so no humans means no Philemon or Nyar. Not only that, but the fact that humans literally NEED Nyx to even function, due to how the shards of her consciousness, ie Shadows, are what allows them to even have a consciousness. So unlike other gods and deities that are born from the collective unconsciousness that more or less depends on humans for their own survival, it's the other way around for Nyx, as Nyx is truly depended on by humans for their own survival, which is quite the irony, given that she's meant to bestow death onto them.

    Also, let's think about this. It required the ENTIRE Collective Unconsciousness to seal Nyx. Meaning both Philemon and Nyarlathotep's powers combined is what it takes to subdue Nyx, since it is a literal impossibility to defeat her. Now, Minato became the Great Seal and locked Nyx up, and even kept Erebus away from her using the Universe Arcana. The Universe Arcana is by far the most powerful Arcana that anyone ever obtained, and only Minato obtained it, very likely because Minato carried Death, the Appriser within him for a decade now. If he was able to seal Nyx once more using his own life, one can infer that at the one moment of becoming the Great Seal, his power was the entirety of the Collective Unconsciousness, meaning he had in fact surpassed both Philemon and Nyar.

  12. Another detail to note is ever since eternal punishment, there has always been a member of the velvet room for the post game secret boss. And philemon himself was the first.

  13. If this theory is true, it also in turn explains why, from P3 onward, why only the main character is able to change their Persona, unlike in the earlier titles in the series. Philemon is too weak to give that ability to too many people at one time, being split into multiple entities and separated. Now that I think about it, him and the Velvet Room attendants act very similar, don't they? It would beg the question why Philemon chose to bestow the Wild Card to only MC. My theory is that since each one has a counterpart (Yu and Adachi, which somewhat resemble the relationship between Philemon and Nyarlathotep) the MC and antagonist were both bordering between Persona and Shadow at the beginning of their story, which probably made it easier for Philemon to give the MC. What I'm trying to say is that since at beginning of their story, the MC societal Persona and Shadow were probably the exact characteristically. My example being that Yu's shadow greatly resemble Adachi. Yu was extremely close to being exactly like Adachi, had it not been for his friends. Yu was more than likely going to snap and do something terrible; P3 MC was probably going to kill him/herself; I have no idea what P5 MC may have done. Maybe he would've just given up on everything and rot? In fact, a lot of things start to add up when you use this theory as a factor.

  14. If Lavenza is only one aspect of Philemon then how is she granting personas to Persona users? Surely that aspect of Philemon would be separate from her right? I mean, none of the other attendants seem to have this power.

  15. Yaldabaoth since it relates with the Demiurge. I see as the Yaweh version of SMT. Is possible that Yaldabaoth is a shard or fragment of Yaweh and is possible that SMT and Persona Universes are connected trough the Amala Universe and Network and demons/deities live in the expanse, that relates with the Animism "is the religious belief that objects, places and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. Potentially, animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, weather systems, human handiwork and perhaps even words—as animated and alive." And that ties with the Expanse, Amala Network, Collective Unsconsciousness and Axiom. And what happens in one game, like the Law/Neutral/Chaos can affect the other game, creating a new timeline, new Universe or new World. Is possible, this is my opinion, when you a pick the Neutral ending in any SMT, that creates where the Persona Universe occurs, where demons and etc don't manifest on the real world, but inside human psyche, and those demons use the fragile human psyche in their favour so they can do their original goal, either to rule Mankind or destroy it. What you think about my opinion?

  16. What I don't get is, are personas demons or not? they are almost all taken straight from the rest of SMT, but then they're also the shadow of people? what exactly is the nature of their relationship with demons?

  17. So, are deities (or whatever the velvet room inhabitants are) able to have personas? I mean, does the fact they are aware of themselves (having an ego) means they also can have shadows and personas? Or it works a bit differently since they're archetypes?

  18. I have a single problem with this. Philemon is around in persona 3 and 4 at the LEAST. It has been stated that the butterflies you see in the intro of both games is Philemon. I don't remember where I heard it or read it, but I clearly remember that.

  19. So basically Nyarlathotep is the Collective Shadow of humanity and Philemon is the Collective persona of humanity. Though if that is the case wouldn’t that mean their technically the same being since personas and shadows are one in the same?

  20. I just found this channel.
    You make quality content, and your knowledge is very well-rounded. I've watched a few videos, took time to think about things. And. Watching this, seeing other things by you. I can't help but think something with your opinions of Kagutsuchi.
    Definitely not the best villain of the series. Not at all. But there's this close friend of mine who adores this character. As a character, obviously. Not… as a person… God… bootleg kinder egg…

    However, when i'd first heard that from her. I laughed. Beforehand she had been hiding that fact by saying Teddie was her favourite. Teddie, indeed being her second favourite only to Kagutsuchi. I considered she may have been joking. But… She kind of has changed my opinion on this character… Greatly. Beforehand seeing him only as a laughing stock. But now as wasted potential. The writing in P4AU was in no way stellar, Why shouldn't Kagutsuchi be under the same banner as Sho and Labrys- of characters that could have been one of the best, yet ended up poorly written.

    As you've said yourself on Tumblr, I believe. The fandom places this stigma around Marie. She's "The worst thing" in people's eyes. Highly exaggerating how 'bad' she was when in reality. The character is not at all bad. In fact, I myself have learnt that way of thinking. Breaking away from this constant bashing of a character that just… Isn't needed.

    I believe the same has happened with Kagutsuchi. P1 and P2 elitists always being the route of this problem with Kagustuchi himself, in particular. Claiming him to be a "ripoff of Nyarlathotep" or trying to find some excuse in which to make the character look bad just because it WASN'T Nyarlathotep.

    This causes a portion of the fandom in turn, to stick their noses up at said character. Never trying to look past a ridiculous stigma that shouldn't even be there in the first place. Formed from a ridiculously petty opinion that people adopted without question.

    Not trying to see the characater for what potential he had- and has! The Ultimax manga made that character into everything he should have been.

    No character should be judged in this way, at least that's what I think…

    I don't know. I'm rambling.

  21. helllllllllllllllooooooooooooooo
    trickster trickster trickster

  22. 16:42 here's my take on the sibling assistants (please note that I'm kinda winging this) they're not separate parts of Philemon but his backup plan. he may have known about a time where even though there will be persona users he may not be around to guide them

    so like Igor he brought them into existence to be mirrors of the ones with the most potential

  23. @Nenilein … A Question. But let me clarify my tópico first, plz okay? alright!!…
    It is clarified that the dieties has the Arcana power or at least the personification(kinda, I guess).
    Examples: Yadabaulf(or sonething..) has the Arcana of Hierophant. Just as Margaret has the Arcana of Empress, they are kinda representing the "concept" about who they are/can do/ how they view theyre meaning and life/death… and others has theyre "archtype"…
    I did not played Persona 5(sadly…) and Lavenza seems offly familiar… she looks like Alice, which is a very stable character in the franchise and has history with the man in the chair in the SMT gamig series, but most of her actions are kinda from the dark side, but in Persona 5 she is mid-ground/good(?).
    I actually would like to know or at least hear you about this character and if Alice has any connection with Phillemon since I remember you could summon an Alice in P3 but maybe I'm wrong.

  24. On why Nyarly didn't get involved in the Nyx thing other then what you said
    He actually did and like P1 and P2 he set the events of P3 into motion. It was Kandori under Nyarlys influence that wrote the papers on Artificial Persona users which was later in the hands of Kirijo

  25. Well with all of the Frankenstein reference, maybe the 5 attendant are like 5 "part" of the body, just like Frankenstein's monster was made of different parts

  26. About Nameless, Belladonna, and the Demon Artist: were they made by Philemon (like Igor), or did they just kind of come into existence on their own?

    On a side note, I've been doing what I can to explain what I know about Persona lore to a friend who only knows the story/plot of P5. As I don't know much about P1 and the P2 duology, my current knowledge is not very clear on certain integral parts of the series' overall story, but I try to explain it anyways. I've recently been looking a bit more into Persona lore, especially P1, P2, and P3 so I can provide more accurate information.
    As a result, I've discovered that the Persona series has one of the most complex, mind-bending stories and sets of lore (that, unfortunately, is mostly hidden, implied, or theorized by fans because of the lack of canon info right now) that I've ever seen, especially in a video game series. It certainly doesn't get any less complex whenever I remember that not only does Persona have it's own deep lore, but that it's also part of the SMT multiverse.

    On another side note, if we assume that P1's protag wasn't the first guest of the Velvet Room, then who was the very first one? Honestly, I think that a canon game (whether it's a main installment in the series or more like a spinoff) explicitly focusing on the canon origins of the Velvet Room, Igor, and their first guest's journey — whenever that happened — would make for a really interesting canon prequel title for the series as a whole. Oh, and did I mention that it would be great to have the game be part of the Persona canon? I mean, it would have a pretty niche market, but it's nice to think that such a game could maybe, just maybe exist in the future.

  27. maybe persona 6 will just have Igor, and instead of having a social link with an attendant, you have one with him. Remember how you said that Igor was made to discover a meaning to life?- maybe you help him find that meaning through interacting with him in the real world and discussing philosophy. Maybe Persona 6 could be about Nihilism, where all of the main characters are in their own version of an existential crisis of purpose, and the main deity is the embodiment of nihilism, who represents humanity's drive for purpose in a seemingly hopeless and depressing world. This deity wouldn't be tied to or the direct cause of any of the troubles the main characters face, but is instead disguised as a normal person who asks them questions about their worldview and motives, and assists them at times. The final battle with them, is merely a test by the deity to test their new purposes' against the trials of reality. A benevolent guide against the harshness of reality, instead of an actual life threatening enemy who endangers humanity.

  28. SPOILER !

    Here's my guess for what each residents stands for:
    Elizabeth: Mankind's enthusiasm and curiosity.
    Theodore: Mankind's curiosity too but also carefulness (maybe ? He's trickier to guess.)
    Margaret: Mankind's care and maternal feelings.
    Lavenza: Philemon's rawest power and Mankind's potential.
    Caroline: Misuse of potential for sadistic purposes.
    Justine: Non-use of potential due to lack of care.

  29. Another thing that adds to this theory, Nyarlathotep is referred to in lovecraftian mythology as the “god of a thousand forms”. This makes the idea of him splitting his power into different deities all the more believable as the Persona series has always had very close ties to mythology.

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